Welcome to SHTF411

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:41 am by JackieG

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http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=2324#more-2324
Many websites, blogs and forums have covered the topic of bugging out in excruciating detail, all under the assumption that this will be a necessary escape plan for many of us when the proverbial shit hits the fan. This notion is predicated upon the belief that escape and evasion, necessary for your immediate survival will be a (likely) event that you must plan and prepare for now.

However, nothing could be further from the real and actual truth........
http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/?p=2324#more-2324

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:29 am by ExMislTech

Well this guy is talking about a bug out when their is abundance and the person still has a job.

My idea of bugout is when there is no job, no more trucks at walmart, $200+ a barrel oil,
riots in most US cities, HR 645 FEMA camps being opened to "help the citizens", or mucking
around in the middle east/Asia triggers WW3.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr645/text

SEC. 2. ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL EMERGENCY CENTERS.

(a) In General- In accordance with the requirements of this Act, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish not fewer than 6 national emergency centers on military installations.

Being near human beings watching their children starve puts you and yours at risk.

I do not advocate running off solo, it often ends bad as he alludes too.

As the smarter survival ppl mention, you want a group small enough to minimize detection if need be,
and not so large as to look like a militia to a government panicking because ppl are going bonkers.

If you look too weak the mob will come for you, if you look too strong the government will come for you.

The threats in major cities are the food trucks stop showing up due to a currency crash,
oil crash ( real or contrived ), civil unrest due to racial tensions over some kid being shot in Florida, etc etc....

If the current puppet in chief goes the way of MLK, RFK, JFK good odds are some major riots in most US cities.

The government is showing signs of getting ready for a shooting war by purchasing 450 million hollow point rnds,
a number of rnds that exceeds the number of citizens counting men, women, and children.

We have ppl in the government calling for depopulation of the entire planet.

We have ppl in the government listing political supporters as possible domestic terrorists.

We have census workers GPS marking ppls homes.

If and when it all goes wonky, and someone decides to name your name to get even
for some silly shit 10 years ago, your going to camp FEMA.

If they don't want to even bother with picking you up that GPS location may just get fed to one of the
30,000 drones they have publicly said they are going to put in the air, some will stay aloft for weeks.

Hope you remember to take the battery out of your cell phone too.

My plan does not guarantee survival, but it sure as hell will do better than standing among millions
of starving city slickers while the police state decides who gets taken to the camps.

We have the most incarcerated nation on earth, though some nations lie about who is really
in prison such as Foxconn workers preferring death, makes it look like they can't quit that job.

In the last 100 years 262 million have died at the hands of their governments, I do not think the
future will see the psychopaths in power change their ways.

So again, the cities will not be safe in a collapse/WW3/civil war scenario.

If you have a job, and their is abundance, doesn't sound like there is much of a crisis.

For me bugout only happens when it looks like all those civilized aspects appear to
be on the verge of vanishing or great violence is coming via the mob, the government,
nature, or foreign power who has grown weary of our 700+ bases in 100+ countries.

The war in Bosnia saw tens of thousands of murders, rapes and thefts as the people turned on each other. It was a fight for survival, for food, for weapons, for money, for women.

The above describes the US - Mexico border pretty well, I think staying put there is deadly.

This is just one aspect of why I say hiding will be more important than shooting
because when ppl are desperate gunfire means you have something worth defending
and the predators will likely come take a look.

Also most of the ppl are near cities, so if you get away from the city centers
there are less ppl, and you want to be near ppl that know how to grow food.

Few ppl in the cities know how to garden, and some will end up slaves if they do.

You do not want a visible building anywhere near where you decide to hide.

Stay away from large lakes and ponds as ppl will go after the fish at some point,
and if they can't get fish they may go for "Long pig" like they did in the Ukraine.

if you do fish in a survival situation consider fish traps, jug lines, etc etc,
things that allow you to return to cover quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

European explorers and colonizers brought home many stories of cannibalism practiced by the native peoples they encountered. The friar Diego de Landa reported about Yucatán instances,[87] and there have been similar reports by Purchas from Popayán, Colombia, and from the Marquesas Islands of Polynesia, where human flesh was called long pig.[88]

You want tree cover, or some kind of cover year round if possible.

This is VERY much like what the Bielski partisans did during WW2.

I just plan to not swat the hornet's nest like they did.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:32 am by wyleecoyote

Very interesting read. Made some excellent points that many wouldn't consider. It will be hard as hell for the seasoned survivalist to survive, let alone the guy who read a book or two. Scary thing is, how much safer would you be anywhere else if shit hit the fan?

Snip from your link

Campsites, caves and hidey-holes will have become armed, dirty and infested encampments of hungry and desperate men (the surviving women would have long since been forced into prostitution and slavery), all fighting over the remaining scraps to be found (and newcomers showing up) necessary for their survival. Informants, traitors, thieves, murderers, rapists and thugs will quickly become the defining characteristic, with the strongest ruling (or eating) the weak. Those who arrive “first” will potentially be better prepared to prey upon the late-comers or the weak, so if you are still planning on trying this, get your seat at the table early.

Think not? This is exactly what happens during civil wars and internal conflicts when a country turns against itself. The war in Bosnia saw tens of thousands of murders, rapes and thefts as the people turned on each other. It was a fight for survival, for food, for weapons, for money, for women.

It has happened all over the world, and it will happen again. Whenever there is not enough to go around, and whenever there is strife, secrecy and conflict, those involved will resort to whatever methods of survival that they have to in order that they might live another day by whatever means possible. It will be no picnic, no romantic “retreat into the woods” where faith, truth, righteousness or rebellion will flourish and grow. Instead, it will be a bloodbath where the young, old and the weak succumb the quickest. I suggest you bring lots of Tabasco sauce, as it does make the meat taste better.

Bugging out also means you are leaving the norms of society behind. These are the rules, laws, restrictions and expectations that you have come to expect (and largely appreciate) that govern human behavior. Would-be dictators and gang leaders will spring forth from unlikely sources. Since there is nothing to hinder them, then they will allow themselves to be unhindered. Unrestrained, you will find the true nature of what your “friends” can really be. You’ll soon regret not locking up the mad caps among you and taking away their weapons. If food or medical supplies are in short supply, then expect gang on gang, tribe on tribe warfare to begin. Expect slavery, torture, imprisonment and rape. Also expect the nearby communities (cities, towns, villages) to become their prey, as theft, robbery and murder to go hand in hand with their (daily) need for food and other things like fuel and medical supplies.

Inversely, you could also expect smart and prepared communities to expel, exterminate and hunt down these refugees if things get way out of hand, exacerbating an already bad situation. Forget for a moment the military or law enforcement going after these woodland refugees (a topic unto itself), the locals themselves will not be the helping hand that you may have naively come to expect, especially if you or your gang have already trod upon their welcome mat. They’re trying to survive too, and live normal, unfettered lives as best they can. They don’t need nor appreciate you coming along and messing things up. Camping out in their back yard or nearby forests will often pit you against them in violent and lethal ways. And they will be far more adept then you are outlasting you because they will have the infrastructure and support network to do so.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:58 am by microcarl

I am one who envisions having to eventually head out to the woods - but only after there is no other choice.

I have a three stage plan that each have their own requirements for pressing on to the next level of hardship and primitive lifestyle. But I would prefer to stay in my own home and in an area where I am familiar.

My hope is that any real neccessity to bug out to a full-time mountain man scenario would be in the late fall. The reason being is that there aren't many who will make that trsk into the wilderness and, those who do will have to be prepaired enough to survive the winter. The fact is, 95% of those living in the wildernedd throough the winter month simply will NOT survive to spring! So my thought is that, if they are stupid enough to head out into the wood unprepaired, especially with the knowledge that winter is bearing down on them, nature will reduce the likelyhood of a deadly confrontation.

There is another consideration that MUST be taken into account. Nobody really considers the dangers that wildlife represents in a wilderness scenario. First, there are the wolf and Cyote packs that will look upon you as a viable source of prey. Cyotes are not as cunning as wolves but both represent a serious threat.

Then there are bears. Sure, bears will be hybrinating in the winter months. But if you are prepaired well enough to make it to spring, you have another threat to be mindful of. Lets just hope you don't use all of your ammo on two the legged threat, Cyotes and Wolves because you will need a caliber of weapon that will take down a full grown bear.

One other threat that I've only seen mentioned once in all of the SHTF type books that I've read - feral dogs. Think about the number of dogs that will be let loose because their owners can't feed them. The sad fact is, the typical bleeding heart will not see their pet as a source of food and, out of compasion will leave them to find for themselves, thinking that letting the dogs free-reign is the more humane thing to do. Feral dogs will be a major threat and, even if you are lucky enough to evade any kind of two legged people threats that invilve hostile gun-play, feral dog packs, cyote packs, wolve packs and bears will require a huge amount of your ammunition to fend off!

Even Racoons, possom, ground hogs, snakes and the like will be a threat to your safety and well being.

So, even while I do think that living in the woods might be a last resort, I do fully understand what the risks will be. Whereas, the typical urbanite and ruralite will more than likely perish in a relatively shourt time frame.

Another issue is that many venturing into the wilderness will become victom of is their own carelessness and lack of experience at living in the wild. If the local wildlife doesn't get them, the environment will certainlly provide more than a fair share of hazzards.

This brings up the lack of medical skills. Wile some will have basic first aid, this will not be enough to ensure proper medical treatment in the event of injury or illness. I am lucky in that, I have basic first aid, but my wife was also a medic in the military. In addition, both my wife and I are scheduled to attend a week long combat medical cours in mid-may. While this can't be compared to modern day emergency services provided at local and regonal hospitals, it will provide a hedge on our survivablilty. I'd recommend that ANYONE considering the wilderness as a final bug-out scenario, you'd better prepair yourselves in every possible way that you can - NOW.

How will you eat out in the wilderness? Well, that is a topic of another time...

There is no guarantee of your survivability, no matter what experience or training you might have in a real SHTF event! But at least take measures to have the best chance possible!!!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:12 am by ExMislTech

How will you eat out in the wilderness? Well, that is a topic of another time...

One of the ppl going with me has a book on all the edible insects and another on root plants.

I know some of them from my days in the scouts, and reading.

We have a full spectrum of seeds, especially a few that are rugged and pervasive,
several that do not look like food.

We have laminated wild edibles guides for this region.

We have cached a lot of long shelf life food, and can hunt while there is game,
but expect the wild game to to be wiped out quickly.

After the first year I suspect most ppl will be gone, and I have more than that in cached food,
though I plan to only use it as a last resort.

Food is actually one of my smaller worries.

Disease, Bio weapons, radiation/fallout, and drones are higher on my list.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:32 pm by Patriotgal

I'll refrain from commenting- having said my piece before on the subject. :)

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:27 pm by orangetom1999

ExMissileTech,

In the last 100 years 262 million have died at the hands of their governments, I do not think the
future will see the psychopaths in power change their ways.

I would be very interested in knowing where you get this figure.

The reason I ask is that often enough I get into debates with atheists/non believers and they use the standard time warp technique of trying to stick Believers back in time to show the church at Rome as doing all these abominations. And they were abominations...but they stick it way back in time somwhere and totally avoid recent and obvious history.

But what happens is that they totally ignore recent history of men of "Enlightenment" and the killings they have done. THe French Revolution is the first of what is sometimes called the Revolutions of the men of reason ...of Enlightenment..the first scientific revolution. It is also the first of the "REvolutions " where it is noticeable that a government has turned on it's own people en mass..and killed them.
Since the French Revolution this has happened more and more in frequency and by men of obvious education and enlightenment.

Yet the Atheists and Non Believers tend to totally avoid this recent history while trying to stick everyone back in a time warp somewhere.
I will quickly bring them back to current history and "Enlightenment" and ask them for answers...of which most haven't any.

But I knew the numbers were very high..in recent history. I was just wondering from whence you get these numbers? For this is so seldom made clear...even in the media who are supposed to be looking out for us/no spin.

This topic line or pattern of thought is also avoided by most of public education today as well.

From whence do you get these figures?

Thanks,
Orangetom

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:57 pm by JackieG

When is it time to bug out?
When this rare episode becomes a hourly occurence in your town
http://www.enterprisenews.com/topstorie ... ton-police
Cops would be tied up for days responding to irate people.
It appears to me ....
This guy has not learned how to legally pay for his gas.
You got to notify the CFO of B.P. (as an example) to clarify a few things first.
This fellow should have at least demanded a bill from the gas station.
If you demand a bill, by law, they got to cough one up.
No bill = no obligation to pay

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:33 am by JackieG

I would like to know what Iran has done to bring on this tirade from Israel?
Is it because Israel got cut off of free gas from the U.S. backed Shah in 1979?
Or, is it because the Irainian threat to the Zionist banking system?
Is Iran the targeted proxy for a face off between NATO v. Russia, China and affiliate's?
Is NK going to nuke Japan?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:50 am by Sancho

orangetom1999 wrote:ExMissileTech,

In the last 100 years 262 million have died at the hands of their governments, I do not think the
future will see the psychopaths in power change their ways.

I would be very interested in knowing where you get this figure.

The reason I ask is that often enough I get into debates with atheists/non believers and they use the standard time warp technique of trying to stick Believers back in time to show the church at Rome as doing all these abominations. And they were abominations...but they stick it way back in time somwhere and totally avoid recent and obvious history.

But what happens is that they totally ignore recent history of men of "Enlightenment" and the killings they have done. THe French Revolution is the first of what is sometimes called the Revolutions of the men of reason ...of Enlightenment..the first scientific revolution. It is also the first of the "REvolutions " where it is noticeable that a government has turned on it's own people en mass..and killed them.
Since the French Revolution this has happened more and more in frequency and by men of obvious education and enlightenment.

Yet the Atheists and Non Believers tend to totally avoid this recent history while trying to stick everyone back in a time warp somewhere.
I will quickly bring them back to current history and "Enlightenment" and ask them for answers...of which most haven't any.

But I knew the numbers were very high..in recent history. I was just wondering from whence you get these numbers? For this is so seldom made clear...even in the media who are supposed to be looking out for us/no spin.

This topic line or pattern of thought is also avoided by most of public education today as well.

From whence do you get these figures?

Thanks,
Orangetom

@Tom,

I'm a gr8 candidate for being called an 'atheist', or a 'non believer', but that's simply because I don't subscribe to the god of the bible. In modern society, especially Western society, all 'morals', and 'dogma's' come from biblical constructs; at their core. My point is, what's been driving Amerika from it's conception has been a very real, and very present Christian Crusading 'Cause'; "Onward Yee Christian Soldiers".

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but wanted to respond to your post specifically to show irrefutable proof of the warped thinking pervading modern Western Society. The documentary below is a must watch; notice the amount of references to the god of the bible in combination to the gr8 abilities of the nuclear bomb. The entire original motivation in the use of using the nuclear bomb was that god gave it to Amerika to defeat the heathens of the world.

From there, we can look at what the conquistadors did to the Native Americans in the Latin American areas, or even what the American protestants did to the Native Americans in the northern America's.

Aside from that, not that I subscribe to it, but the 100's of millions of people you mention, most would think of, or the names that would come to mind were Moa, Hitler, and Stalin to be 'behind' much of that bloodshed; one part that I don't necessarily subscribe to, but is a real possibility, is that those people were Jesuit's, and their wars, and/or genocides were religious wars.

But, when looking at those conflicts, there were always Western Society=Protestant groups in the mix; Dresden comes to mind; why was Dresden, and it's innocent inhabitants bombed at the end of the war?

I really suggest watching at least minute 6:45, through the song starting at 7:00

The documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOUtZOqgSG8

Aside from this post, I won't comment again on this topic in this thread, as it's seemingly off topic.

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:58 am by JackieG

In the last 100 years 262 million have died at the hands of their governments,"
WW I, WW II, Boleshivik Revolition got to add up to 200 million or more.
And then there is Mao.... :blink:

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:23 am by JackieG

At the end of WW II the American armed forces totaled over 16 million.
The most awesome god damn force on the planet.

Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:25 pm by mrwupy

I was reading a story today about EMP blasts and it said you could protect your electronics by putting them in an old broken microwave oven, which acts as a Faraday cage. Don't put them in a working microwave or you might accidentally fry them. It might take awhile to get the radio stations working again but at least you will have a working radio to search for them, especially if it's a wind up radio. You can buy those for less than 20 bucks at wally world.

In the event SHTF I have a feeling we will have a small window to get our plans in order before all hell breaks loose. Remember the blackout on the eastern seaboard a few years back? Everyone actually worked together in the beginning and made a party of it until the power came back on. True, that blackout only lasted a few hours but that would have been enough for someone like myself or yourself to make it out of town.

My son owns ten acres in the middle of the most desolate county in the Ozarks of Arkansas, so I have a place I could go to. My problem would be if an EMP took out my car. The place is about an hour away by car, but one hell of a walk if I have to head out on foot. The walk alone could kill my 50 something year old ass.

There's an old Chinese curse that goes:

"May you live in interesting times."

My friends, I'm starting to believe those fucking Chinese have cursed us, cause these times are incredibly interesting.

Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:47 pm by JackieG

"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery".
Malcolm X

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:21 am by ExMislTech

orangetom1999 wrote:ExMissileTech,

In the last 100 years 262 million have died at the hands of their governments, I do not think the
future will see the psychopaths in power change their ways.

I would be very interested in knowing where you get this figure.

The reason I ask is that often enough I get into debates with atheists/non believers and they use the standard time warp technique of trying to stick Believers back in time to show the church at Rome as doing all these abominations. And they were abominations...but they stick it way back in time somwhere and totally avoid recent and obvious history.

But what happens is that they totally ignore recent history of men of "Enlightenment" and the killings they have done. THe French Revolution is the first of what is sometimes called the Revolutions of the men of reason ...of Enlightenment..the first scientific revolution. It is also the first of the "REvolutions " where it is noticeable that a government has turned on it's own people en mass..and killed them.
Since the French Revolution this has happened more and more in frequency and by men of obvious education and enlightenment.

Yet the Atheists and Non Believers tend to totally avoid this recent history while trying to stick everyone back in a time warp somewhere.
I will quickly bring them back to current history and "Enlightenment" and ask them for answers...of which most haven't any.

But I knew the numbers were very high..in recent history. I was just wondering from whence you get these numbers? For this is so seldom made clear...even in the media who are supposed to be looking out for us/no spin.

This topic line or pattern of thought is also avoided by most of public education today as well.

From whence do you get these figures?

Thanks,
Orangetom

I do not remember blaming religion in this thread, but I do blame governments, and seeing how
religion often panders massive money to puppets in power there is "some" guilt by association.

Also the big christian death tolls were not in the last 100 years, ie. Inquistion, Witch trials, Crusades 1 & 2.

My point in this post is "governments of the world" in the last 100 years killed somewhere north of 262 million NOT counting war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide#Research_on_democide

His research shows that the death toll from democide is far greater than the death toll from war. After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century. According to his figures, six times as many people have died from the inflictions of people working for governments than have died in battle.

7 million died here in the US "just" during the great depression.

No idea of the death toll due to 1st prohibition of Alcohol, and now a plant, a few million I am sure.

The land of freedom where you are free to do as we tell you, victimless crimes are bullshit.

It is my sincere feeling that could have been avoided by an expanded
version of the CCC, and I am not alone in that perspective.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:28 am by ExMislTech

JackieG wrote:I would like to know what Iran has done to bring on this tirade from Israel?
Is it because Israel got cut off of free gas from the U.S. backed Shah in 1979?
Or, is it because the Irainian threat to the Zionist banking system?
Is Iran the targeted proxy for a face off between NATO v. Russia, China and affiliate's?
Is NK going to nuke Japan?

Some of your answers there are part of the reason Israel is upset with Iran,
and I suspect there are others.

Different aspects of controls issues, and Iran backing terror Orgs in the
area of Israel much the same way Saddam used to pay $16,000 USD for each
dead Israeli soldier to any family who killed one.

Iran's funding of groups in that area is a little less public, but Hamas, Hezbollah
and others get some degree of funding and weapons from Iran.

I am not EVEN attempting to defend Israel, they can take care of that themselves,
and as I have said before they have a LOT to answer for in the way of dancing Israeli's on 911,
and the USS Liberty.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:45 am by ExMislTech

mrwupy wrote:I was reading a story today about EMP blasts and it said you could protect your electronics by putting them in an old broken microwave oven, which acts as a Faraday cage. Don't put them in a working microwave or you might accidentally fry them. It might take awhile to get the radio stations working again but at least you will have a working radio to search for them, especially if it's a wind up radio. You can buy those for less than 20 bucks at wally world.

In the event SHTF I have a feeling we will have a small window to get our plans in order before all hell breaks loose. Remember the blackout on the eastern seaboard a few years back? Everyone actually worked together in the beginning and made a party of it until the power came back on. True, that blackout only lasted a few hours but that would have been enough for someone like myself or yourself to make it out of town.

My son owns ten acres in the middle of the most desolate county in the Ozarks of Arkansas, so I have a place I could go to. My problem would be if an EMP took out my car. The place is about an hour away by car, but one hell of a walk if I have to head out on foot. The walk alone could kill my 50 something year old ass.

There's an old Chinese curse that goes:

"May you live in interesting times."

My friends, I'm starting to believe those fucking Chinese have cursed us, cause these times are incredibly interesting.

Well said, any metal box works, for me its barrels and ammo cans.

Chinese have some incredibly good wisdom, and some of their medicine they are
finding is being rediscovered.

Ancient herbalists in China knew of Artemesia long long ago.

and now we know its a cure for Malaria after millions have died...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_ ... #Medicinal

What is amazing to find out is the Chinese hid this cure from the rest
of the world, a decision made by "government" and I am sure this
indirectly lead to the deaths of .... you guessed it....millions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9058283/Malaria-death-toll-far-higher-than-previously-thought.html

Often government does more harm then good and the truth is slowly coming out.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:25 pm by orangetom1999

ExMissileTech,

NO worries EMT. Got your PM. I too have been very busy around and about here.

Ahhh..I see now..Thanks for that link. I have bookmarked it for future reference.

I was musing on that concept as to where such informations would originate.

I knew that there was something very wrong with the method and analysis of many people today who try to put the onus on the Christian Religion but did not know where such informations or numbers could be found.

Also the word. Democide is a new one to me. Thanks for that exposure as well. I will try to remember that when debating non believers.

What I find of great interest by people supposedly of logic and reason is the total abscence of this knowledge or even instinct to sense that something is missing from their education and belief system. This very abscence or unawareness by people who believe in democracy.

I Personally do not believe in democracy. I think it is a sham and a scam by logical reasonable men..gnostics seeking a Return or Restoration of the True Brotherhoood. Feudalism/Royalty.

I also know that there is still a long standing feud or war going on between these men of Gnostic beliefs..logic and reason and another competing group of Gnostics in Rome. The RCC. It is a struggle between Catholic Gnostics and non Catholic Gnostics.

This is what came out of the Enlightenment and continues unto today with millions on both sides caught up into it without knowing or being aware of it's nature.

The Church at Rome went one way and the Protestants or those opposing Rome went another. However ..out of the Enlightenment and rational, logical, reasonable men...came the Internationale..or what was to become the Communists...the UnGodly.

I do also believe EMT...that politics has become a religon..an occult religion with doctrines and practices not known by the people who vote these politicians into office. A devout and zealous religion with a dogma of which the people know little or nothing about it's inner workings and beliefs.

Though I have suspected it for some time now...through past administrations...it has become clear with this one...that the dogma of

Ordo Ob Chao....is their primary operating mode....not leadership per se..but an investment in Chaos.

To divide and conquer...to manage chaos to its reasonable and logical conclusion.....ie...Drama Management/Media Management.

I find this type of conduct by leaders and leadership to be Predatory
and not of stability...nor moral and ethical.
And I believe both dominant political parties are involved in it to the deception and expense of the public.

And in the end...the goal will be exactly what the author of that Wiki article is teaching ...Democide

Thanks for getting back to me on this and providing the link.

Oh..I made a reply to you some time back and dont know if you have seen it on the thread...about Fukashima concerning the term. "Turbine Shine."
Just a bit of trades trivia.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Sancho,

I have no idea what is a "gr8 " candidate and would appreciate you clearing this up for me.

I'm a gr8 candidate for being called an 'atheist', or a 'non believer', but that's simply because I don't subscribe to the god of the bible.

I understand that you do not subscribe to the God of the Bible. No problem by me.
What it is that I appreciate about your posts Sancho is that you tend to go light on the drama verses many non believers who try to substitute drama, labeling and name calling for reason and logic.

I can appreciate this in your posts and personal conduct.

However I have often noted this in the conduct of most Atheists and non believers.
I have also noted this fingerprint or index in our leadership for years now. I do not care to be associated with drama types. It is just a personal preference of mine.

In the heavy industry for which I have worked for so many years...one learns to stow the drama in order to solve problems or face ones death, injury, or maiming. I do not change my beliefs..or jump into a phone booth ..so to speak and put on my drama costume when I leave work. This pattern of thinking and behavior stays with me off the clock as well.

So when I detect leadership or others doing this I tend to put distance between me and them...it is my way.

For the most part..I do not detect this behavior in you. Which leads to the question ...How did you escape this "Virus" which seems so prevalent today in peoples conduct???

I am not saying here that you do not have your passions...but that for the most part you seem to keep them in check whereas others seem incapable of realizing or understanding this concept around them.

In modern society, especially Western society, all 'morals', and 'dogma's' come from biblical constructs; at their core. My point is, what's been driving Amerika from it's conception has been a very real, and very present Christian Crusading 'Cause'; "Onward Yee Christian Soldiers".

I disagree here. In modern western society...there has been a deliberate attempt to substitute this dogma with another dogma based on the gnostic, logical, reasonable beliefs of ancient times. A return to Feudalism...Royalty...Absolute Power....Occult power. What they want to do is come out in the Open with this new system.

To do this Christianity must go. It must be replaced with the new religion, the new belief system...the Novus Ordo Seclorum.
And this is being done in a manner that very few people can detect as most peoples today have a television and movie education in emotions...not thinking.

I also believe that the groundwork for this new Order was laid centuries back.
That this order has come into conflict with another order...for dominance...the Catholic version of the Novus Ordo Seclorum.

Just a matter of which Counterfeit Novus Ordo Seclorum do you want. They are both phonys. And both have their predatory tenticles into governments to hide their true Occult/Gnostic origins. To hide their attempts at the "Restoration of the True Brotherhood."

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but wanted to respond to your post specifically to show irrefutable proof of the warped thinking pervading modern Western Society.

I don't think you are hijacking this thread because the "Chaos" in which will constitute the primary investement in the end...will be key to what is going to happen and why Bugging Out may not be a good option for many.

And I agree..there is alot of warped thinking going on in Western Socitey..but perhapsed not for the reason you think or believe. I believe the warped thinking is being carefully cultivated and encouraged as part of the Chaos desired and needed to bring about a conclusion.
I also think that this Warped Thinking will increase soon...exponentially...and particularly before election time...and continuing long after.

But it's origins are not from Christiantiy. Christianity will however be given and assigned the blame for it as part of the divide and conquer investment in Chaos necessary to reach the goals of these Gnostic Wise Men.

The entire original motivation in the use of using the nuclear bomb was that god gave it to Amerika to defeat the heathens of the world.

I dont believe this at all. I believe power is a HUGE two way responsiblity. Like any two edged dagger it can cut you back if not used wisely and prudently. And few are the men from history capable of effectively wielding power.

Power corrupts and absolute power...corrupts ...et al...etc etc.

Also from George Santayana...those who do not learn from history ...etc..

I believe you know thesse olde sayings better than do most.

There is a significant amout of truth to them.

My belief is that because of the Fallen nature of men, very very rare is there a man who can gather power unto himself and not have to use it.

To me ...that is the best kind of leader. Because this leaves the people to conduct their own affairs unto their own conclusions..unto their own responsibilities..their own fruits. This kind of leadership also prevents other men from using and misusing this power.

This is what the founders here in America wanted done through the charter of government. A Limited Government.

This....Sancho...was also their rationale...and correctly so...for the 1st Amendment. To prevent the association of Church and State which is the historical Ballywick of most nations throughout history.

Not to keep the people from living within their religion..but to prevent the "Mischief " of what happened in so many feudal nations/governments before us. For the Founders here Understood the lessons of history and the natural mischief of fallen men...when they get into positions of power.

I am often reminded in this of Oliver Cromwell in England after the Execution of King Charles 1st in 1649. Cromwell thought he would get a government of all religious men...preachers....only to find that they did just as bad if not worse than the fallen men of the previous government. He dismissed them as well. Cromwell could never figure out the system of Limited Government.

From there, we can look at what the conquistadors did to the Native Americans in the Latin American areas, or even what the American protestants did to the Native Americans in the northern America's

One needs to be very careful in dissecting the power structure here before assigning blame as is so textbook of logic and reason today. Also very textbook of todays public education blame game.
I noted this in the recent History Channels rewriting of history when they stuck Al Sharpton on there as a commentator. I dont even remember the name of this history channel program. 15 minutes of it and I turned it off.

I dont respond to such guilt manipulation techniques.

Remember with whom the Church at Rome was in bed with and continues unto this very day.
The Protestants did this or did men seeking power and riches do this and just happen to be protestants??

This does not also explain the "Democide" going on today and since 1900 going on all around the world. Suggest here you learn to look at the world through a Occult template. Another Religion..

one part that I don't necessarily subscribe to, but is a real possibility, is that those people were Jesuit's, and their wars, and/or genocides were religious wars.

To me Sancho...thesre are indeed religious wars. They just do not fit the standard template of religions of which most of us know or are even aware.
The Society of Jesus...is not the product advertised. History should make this quite clear to those who can think outside the box of what passes for most of education/thinking today.

Not the product advertised is also a definition of the body politic.

That there is another belief system operating underneath...behind the visibility of most eyes...hidden...concealed.

But, when looking at those conflicts, there were always Western Society=Protestant groups in the mix; Dresden comes to mind; why was Dresden, and it's innocent inhabitants bombed at the end of the war?

World War 1 and World War 2 are continuations of the same war and struggle in Chaos. Dresden as well as Cologne comes to mind as do many Japanesse Cities. So too does Vicksburg, Atlanta, and scorched earth policies.

If you read carefully ...they are occult wars..where the victors do not get the spoils after expending millions in finance as well as lives.
This means the participating nations are fighting someone else's wars..for someone else's gain. For someone not wanting to be seen or noticed.
This should be obvious once one breaks a public school educational pattern of thinking.

And this pattern is continuing today..in Libya, Egypt, and soon to be Syria.
Also in Iraq and Afghanistan. These are going to be set up as private Feifdoms...private holdings to keep the resources off the marketplace and in the hands and control of private individuals operating through companies and finance institutions.

Watching my time constraints...I must make haste. I do not think you are posting off topic here..but related to what is coming and eventually the "Fallacy of Bugging out" as in the title page of this thread.

Thanks Sancho for your post,

Orangetom

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